Accept Your Own Darkness, Lead Others To The Light with Melissa Bernstein
In this episode of Good Enough for Now, we talk with entrepreneur and author, Melissa Bernstein, about her experience overcoming existential depression, how she found salvation from that darkness, and ways she brings her creativity and light into the world to help others.
After running her toy business, Melissa & Doug for 30 years, Melissa founded Lifelines, an organization whose mission it is change the conversation around mental well-being and inspire individuals to live a more authentic, grounded, and joyful life.
Tune in to hear more about Melissa’s journey to self-acceptance, embracing rejection, and tips for finding balance in the face of extremes.
LISTEN NOW
three reasons why you should listen to this episode:
Transform and channel your inner darkness and struggles into light
Embrace the role rejection plays on your journey to self-acceptance and authenticity
Create balance in your life in the face of extremes
Highlights
We catch up with Melissa in her home in Connecticut, where she lives with her husband and where she raised her 6 children.
She delves into her experience overcoming existential nihilism, something she had spent her 20’s and 30’s hiding and suppressing; eventually realizing this was a key to her creativity.
An existentialist is someone who realizes that actually as humans, we do have ultimate power because we can choose how to live our lives and we can actually choose to take responsibility for making meaning.
Even the toys I created, which had been my salvation, I wouldn't be here without channeling that darkness into light.
While guest speaking on a podcast, Melissa finally had the opportunity to open up to the world about the existential depression she dealt with.
The cry in my own soul got so loud that I didn't care anymore. And it was almost like one day I was like, I gotta share this. I gotta come out. I knew that I needed for my own wellbeing, for my own authenticity to just stop living a lie.
To her surprise and relief, once she opened up about her struggle with depression and her attempts to recover, she received priceless feedback.
I received hundreds… of letters and the letters were what changed my life. There were all these folks that said, you were the first person that ever gave voice to what I've been experiencing my whole life.
A writer since an early age, Melissa had written “verses” poetry that exposed her wrestle with darkness, her innermost challenges and her process for break through. Armed with the knowledge of how her words could help others, she felt that sharing her voice, on her own terms, was imperative for her true self-expression. She embarked on publishing a book of her work and the creation of Lifelines.
I wanted to touch a handful of people a lot rather than millions of people a little. I didn't care if three people read this, if it saved their lives, that was gonna be enough for me.
It made me so proud that I didn't take the easy way out that I said, “No, I'm gonna do it my way or no way”. It was another lesson that when you do it your own way, you know it's a good thing.
What Good Enough For Now means to Melissa:
I think that's the very definition of being present, right? Because good enough for now means I'm okay as I am at this very moment. And I'm going to make the most of this very moment without any thought toward, you know, the future or the past. I'm just okay right now.
ABOUT
Melissa Bernstein is an entrepreneur, creative, and working mother of 6. As Co-Founder of the wildly successful toy company Melissa & Doug, Melissa has spent the last 30 years helping children discover themselves, their passions, and their purpose through open-ended play.
In 2020, after her own personal journey of self-discovery and acceptance, Melissa founded Lifelines. Through Lifelines, she is using her unparalleled creativity and imagination to reinvent well-being products and experiences to help adults strengthen their resilience, stay grounded, and unlock their full potential. Melissa lives in Westport, Connecticut with Doug and their children.
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Harper (00:01):
Welcome, Melissa Bernstein. Thanks. We're so happy to have you here.
Melissa (00:07):
So glad to be here with you.
Stephanie (00:09):
Yes. This is so nice to have you.
Harper (00:12):
So let's get started. Tell us where you are in your life right now.
Melissa (00:17):
Wow. I would say I'm at a huge transition because, and I, I didn't speak about this, I haven't spoken about this with anybody. Uh, five out of my six kids have left the house in the last month.
Harper (00:35):
Wow.
Melissa (00:36):
Yeah. It's one of those big life transitions and and a role that's really changing.
Stephanie (00:45):
That is huge. That is huge.
Melissa (00:48):
Yeah. I think, I think not enough people really speak about the, the sense of loss, uh, that so many parents feel when, cuz you know, you wanna be happy for your kids and of course it's incredible for your kids to have the gift of being able to leave the house and do something incredible with their education is like, Right. What can you say negative about it? But there is that sense of role loss that so many I speak with feel, uh, that I think needs to be discussed a little more.
Stephanie (01:24):
Yeah. I, I, um, you're not the first person who said this lately, um, that I've talked to. I mean, it's that time of year, right? It's, uh, we're talking to you in the fall time period where everyone's returning back to school and college and the town, you know, coming, going back to the next chapter of their lives. And I wonder too, if you're noticing how different it might feel to you given, you know, was your parenting different with your kids or, you know, the closeness I think that some of us, um, have grown up with in this age versus maybe, you know, 20, 30 years ago. Um, do you think that plays a role in how you feel? Or are these emotions, you know, what they are regardless?
Melissa (02:13):
I think it does play a role. I think so many parents are much closer to their kids, especially during Covid, right? And with all the mental health challenges, I think we do become closer to our kids and they become more woven into our definition of who we are. And, you know, I think when it comes to, to meaning, because, you know, my whole life has been about trying to craft a, a life of meaning when kind of a little voice was telling me there wasn't any meaning. Um, I think that so many parents craft their lives and they're meaning solely around their kids. And you know, it's the difference between like creating a bunch of values that are all parallel and planting a lot of seeds. So you have so many different aspects of your life versus so many parents only have their kids, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and their kids become everything to them. Their, their pastimes, their sense of self, their validation. And I see so often that when then the kids leave the home, like the parents have this sort of existential vacuum, right? This, this emptiness that they can't easily fill. So I'm having known that I would say simultaneous to building these relationships, my kids, I was always knowing that this day was going to come and also trying to sew other seeds so I'd have them readily available when they had left.
Stephanie (03:49):
And you mentioned that ex existential dread, and I know that that is somewhat part of a journey. You've, you know, not somewhat, it is very core to a journey that you have been on yourself. Yes. So can you tell us about a transition that didn't just happen to you, that you actually found yourself seeking and, and needing to go through on your own?
Melissa (04:12):
Yes. And I think it's become so relevant, you know, during covid, because I think I was born with what I call an existential meaning crisis. You know, always asking those questions, Why am I here? What is the meaning of life if we ultimately just expire? And like, what am I meant to do during my brief time here on earth? And I couldn't find the answers to those questions. And everyone I tried to ask thought I was crazy, especially at age three when I was like asking some of these deep, dark questions. So, you know, I hid it from the world, but inside I was really feeling like life was futile and there was no meaning to existence. And I think that's called nihilism. When you fall into a state where you believe there's no meaning to existence, and we as humans have no ability to make meaning in a meaningless existence.
(05:09):
And that's the lowest point I got to, even though I hid it from the world and wore this phony smile I wanted to in my life because I felt like I, as a human, there was nothing I could do to change sort of my fate, which was ultimate doom. And it's a really, really dark place. And I'd speak to so many folks that fall into that. And I think during those bouts are when we come closest to really questioning life. And, you know, I'm fortunate because I always had this insatiable curiosity and desire to understand why. And I think that that desire to find out sort of the, the answer to that question, why am I here? And, and not stop until I did find it out, sort of kept me alive. Because even in those really darkest hours, I was still like, but there has to be a reason for life and there has to be a reason.
(06:07):
So, you know, I just stumbled my way through and ultimately, you know, through a lot of, a lot of, uh, trials and tribulations and dark journeys, um, ended up becoming, Right now I'm an existentialist. And an existentialist is very different than an existential nihlist. An existentialist is someone who realizes that actually as humans, we do have ultimate power because we can choose how to live our lives and we can actually choose to take responsibility for making meaning. And through our creative experiences, our, uh, life experiences and through our attitudes really craft a life of meaning. So I came full circle, which, uh, is nothing short of miraculous from where I was.
Harper (07:03):
Wow. That's huge. Melissa, I love hearing your story over and over again. No matter how many times I listen to you on podcasts or read articles or anything that you share, I just think your message is so powerful. And the first thing I ever saw that you were featured in was a CBS Sunday morning show about a year and a half ago. And I knew Melissa, and Doug was totally familiar with the brand, and here's the face of it. And I'm sitting there weeping, going, I don't even know this person, but I feel so connected to her story. And my question to you is, what made you decide to share your story and to continue to share your story over and over again and build a brand around it instead of just navigating this on your own, with your own family, with a, with therapy resources, whatever those look like?
Melissa (07:51):
That's a great question. And we can also talk about another transition that's even come since then that will be really special. Cause I haven't spoken about it, but, you know, it wasn't intentional. I hid it from even myself. Like this existential nihilism was so dark and I had this demon in my head that was telling me to end my life every moment of every day. It was like, it's feudal, Melissa, stop trying. Just ended. So the only way I survived was to repress it to such an extent and, and just engage in continual, incessant action. Literally just keep busy all the time. So if you ever want a productive person, like hire an existential ni because they are like rabidly needing to try to find meaning through creating. And that's basically what I did. I had six children. I crafted a life that was a life, and I, and I was, you know, happy by, by, by normal standards.
(08:54):
Um, but this darkness was lurking. And what started to happen as the older I got, and I think when you hide the truth of who you are, right? You all hide your authentic self behind a lot of phoniness. It's exhausting. And when we're in our twenties, we can do it. We can put on the shiny smile, say I'm great in our thirties, we can buck up and, you know, sort of the damn is still really strong. But what started to happen is as I got into my forties, and I didn't even realize this, again, repression was at its finest with Melissa. Like, I repressed every single thing I felt and I believed that was who I was. Like I didn't even associate with it. But the dam started to spring, a couple leaks, and I started to feel really inauthentic. And even the toys I created, which like had been my salvation, I wouldn't be here without channeling that darkness into light.
(09:50):
You know, I speak about it a lot through making the toys, but I started to see those toys on a shelf and think, this is phony. This is like what I've been doing with my personality my whole life. I'm hiding behind this bright shiny logo and this these like, you know, bright colors and this beautiful packaging. I'm hiding the darkness, which is the truth of how all these toys were created. And I started to feel like, like I would look around all the time, like, who are you Melissa? You have no idea who you are. No one knows what you're hiding. And I was trying to, in all that sort of get the courage to come out. I was really trying to come out. And that's when I started listening to a lot of podcasts. I started reading books of people telling their stories, and I now realize I didn't know why I was doing it, but that I was just trying to get the courage to, to do it myself. And I was still really scared of what people would think. So that became greater and greater and greater until to, to make it sound more poetic. Like the cry in my own soul got so definitely loud that I, I didn't care anymore. And it was almost like one day I was like, I gotta, I gotta share this. I gotta come out. Not that anybody cared, but, but I knew that I needed for my own wellbeing, for my own authenticity to just stop living a lie, so to speak.
Harper (11:22):
What was that first step? Who did you tell first
Melissa (11:26):
<laugh>? The first step was I decided to go on a podcast. I didn't tell anybody. I just decided I would go on one of my favorite podcasts and share this truth that I, I had put a bunch of dots together and I realized that, you know, these qualities that I had wanted to expunge, I mean I wanted and tried to end my life were actually because I had a condition called existential depression. And that I also had these over excit abilities. I had a highly excitable, central nervous system that manifested in five ways that led to my creativity. And that I started to see for the very first time that I had a blur, which is my own word, for a combination of a blessing and a curse. And my whole life I had thought I was cursed. I, I used that word in a lot of my verses, I'm cursed because I thought like, who would give someone these horrible qualities that make them wallow in despair like 24 7?
(12:29):
And I never associated it with my ability to just create from white space. I never thought that that was the reason I could create so effortlessly because I have this keen sensitivity to both the beauty and the pain of the world simultaneously raging through my, my veins. Um, and I started to see that connection and realize that so many other creatives also are blur. And I started to feel like people want what we creatives create, but they're not willing to accept the blurs of who we are. So I wanted to just speak sort of for maybe others who were also hiding under, um, that despair and also channeling it into creative objects or creative works.
Stephanie (13:23):
And I think, you know, it's, it sounds like too, you not only had to find this understanding of what you were suppressing right, and be willing to let that go, or maybe the dam just burst on you and you just, you know, as you described, I think you got to that point where you just didn't have the energy, which I can imagine the ridiculous amount of energy that it took to repress your, who you are authentically behind or below how you operated on a daily basis and how you related to other people in your life. Right. Talk about imposter syndrome, <laugh>. I mean, it's, um, and, and I think that there's so much that is relative to where a lot of people find themselves in midlife. Yes. Right? So, you know, the energy isn't there for whatever it is we've been repressing. It may not quite be exactly the same situation as you found yourself. So you, you, you come out on a podcast <laugh>, um, you know, and deal with perhaps the, the benefit of that and, and perhaps some fallout of that. What do you do next?
Melissa (14:37):
That's a great question. I mean, that podcast episode actually changed my life because, uh, you know, it, it didn't air for about five months and after I went on it, so I forgot that I even was on it because I really thought that it must have been a dream because how could I, like I'm an introverted creative, I really never spoke, you know, I created, I channeled through my hands and I wasn't a verbal person. And I always believed that when know words flowed out my, my fingertips, but not off my lips. Um, and I truly believe that. So to come out on this podcast and sort of say, I have an existential depression, and all these toys were created out of a whole lot of darkness and, and having not told anyone else, um, was like almost unfathomable. But when it did air, the only reason I knew it even aired cuz I literally completely And I thought, there's no way he is gonna run this.
(15:36):
I mean, this is ridiculous, <laugh>. Um, I received hundreds and hundreds of letters and the letters were what changed my life because had I not received the letters, I probably just would've gone on. And, you know, sort of felt maybe slightly slight catharsis that I, I showed a little bit of who I was, but I don't think I would've changed that much. But the letters were like, you know, I say drops of gold raining down from the heavens because there were all these folks that said, you were the first person that ever gave voice to what I've been experiencing my whole life. And like, again and again and again and again. And that was when my life changed because, um, sort of three things happened. I felt first that a as Harper said with, you know, her, her condition, like I wasn't alone for the first time.
(16:29):
I was like, Wait a second, I'm not the only person who's experienced this. Like, there are are in fact tons of others. Like if I, if I got hundreds of letters, I can only imagine how many people must ex be experiencing this. So it was like this profound sense, Oh my gosh, I'm not alone. Then I decided I was gonna speak with every single person who wrote me. Cause these letters were way too beautiful to just like, ignore. And in talking to them, I realized that we were very, very similar. But there was one incredible difference, which was they said to me like, you figure out the way to channel your darkness until Ida make meaning. Like, I'm still in the dark and debating whether to go on or not. And I felt like, oh my gosh, I can help them. Like I, because I have done the work and I have found my, my channeling, like I can help them turn their darkness into light.
(17:25):
And that made, And then of course the, the, the last was that until we sort of as humans make the choice to stop racing externally for value validation and material possessions and all these things, thatI society tells us, right? Society tells us pursue happiness. It's out there, you'll get it, I promise it's a lie. Happiness is not out there, happiness is within. And until we realize that we need to stop racing, cuz you will just keep wanting more and make that journey inward and accept ourselves in all our emotional spectrum, in totality, uh, we won't find that contentment. I sort of had all those revelations, um, make me decide that I was ready for something new. You know, as, as incredible as making toys was. And like it was the, the, the fuel that lit my soul on fire. Um, I wanted to do something maybe even more important for me. I wanted to use my own personal darkness and my own experience to help others, um, find their light.
Harper (18:38):
I was so fascinated when you and I first spoke and you responded to my email after watching the segment that you did. And I'll never forget when you responded. I did not expect to response at all. And you acknowledged when we spoke that you did respond to all of these messages and emails and letters that you got. And I think it's so powerful cuz so many people could just receive it and go, All right, this is good validation. It's nice to know there are other people out there, but I'm just gonna sit on this or let them accumulate, whatever. But you made it so clear how intentional it was for you to engage with people.
Melissa (19:14):
So the most powerful thing I do is I talk to individuals and literally I talk to any, especially those who are in the darkest of places, because I've been there and I have no fear about going there with someone. And I feel so from someone who felt so disempowered, who felt that she was a victim of her fate in circumstances. And, you know, I was like a, a boat in, in, in stormy seas, just thrown from one, you know, side of the, the ocean to the other. Now I feel so different. I feel like if I talk to an individual and I can somehow make them see that their life is worth living and they can choose to adopt a mentality of positivity or find that thing within them that they can catalyze to find joy. You know, uh, it's like the Talmud says, if you save one life, you save the entire world. And I truly, uh, live by that motto. Now.
Harper (20:23):
That's beautiful. I love that. I'm gonna write that one down. Um, one of the things that you, Oh, I just lost my train of thought. Um,
Stephanie (20:32):
I have a question if you want to think about it.
Harper (20:35):
Yeah, no, I wanted to say something. Um, go ahead Steph. It'll come to me. It'll
Melissa (20:42):
Come to you
Stephanie (20:42):
When hearing your story and hearing how you have, it's the wor a couple words came to mind. So one was acceptance and the other one was vulnerability. So you went through your own journey to understand, put words to how you felt, understand why, how you know who you actually are and, and how you wanted to live. So that's kind of that acceptance piece. And I know you talk about this, um, in lifelines as well. Um, but then the vulnerability of not only channeling your authenticity, but then saying, you know, kind of uncovering your insides and, and putting them out for everyone to see and to be available, which can feel probably scary at some point. You know, these things don't happen overnight. So how does that feel to you now? Do you, do you find yourself ever having to sort of reset where you're at and acceptance or your journey, the kind of practice, you know who you are now, you live so many years repressed.
Melissa (21:54):
Yeah, it's an amazing question. How
Stephanie (21:57):
Do you get of that?
Melissa (21:58):
It, Well, I'd say by the time I did come out, and that's why I think it, as we talked about, it doesn't happen until middle age because we have to get up the courage. So the longer it takes us to get up, the courage is the longer it takes us. And for me, I had a, my repression was great, that's why unfortunately it took me, you know, a long time in my till, my late forties. But when I did it, it was the most freeing, liberating thing I could ever do. And I wanted to be so honest and I wanted to kind of rip the guys off, you know, materiality and rip the guys off success and really say to people like, you know, you think because I've been successful materially, right? And I have everything money could buy, and I have an incredible beautiful relationship to my husband of 30 years and I have six children.
(22:52):
Like you think it makes it so life is perfect for me. And, and I did get a big backlash from people who said, Who are you to say you're depressed? You have everything like you wanna see depressed honey, look at my life. And they would, And I got a lot of those letters and those were the letters I loved the most because I love changing behavior. And I would write back every one of those and ask to speak with them because I wanted to say to them like, that's external, right? Those are all the external measures that society tells us will make us happy. But if you are born inside with existential depression and hyper sensitivities, I don't care what happens on the outside, you are going to need a daily deliberate practice to deal with your hypersensitivity to remain economists. So, you know, I wanted to say to them, who told you that? You know, having millions of dollars makes you feel equanimous inside. Like, and, and that is untrue. And, and I loved when many of them, you know, at the end of the conversation kind of said, Wow, you know, you you, you changed the way I thought. I thought rich people were all happy. And I was like, You really haven't read the, read the, the tabloids recently, <laugh>
Harper (24:14):
Like the opposite.
Melissa (24:15):
Quite the opposite. It's actually the, the, the existential crises are the greatest among those. Because when you're striving, there's actually a lot of adrenaline and dopamine in striving, right? You have your ultimate goal and you, and you're working hard and you're believing you're gonna get there. And that's beautiful. That's, that's, uh, meaningful. But when you have everything you ever dreamed of and more, and it's still not filling the inner dearth of your soul, talk about an existential crisis, then you are going to really feel that there's nothing you can do. So most of the enlightened individuals, even the Buddha himself, he was a prince, you know, they, they have the riches. You, you almost have to get to that point to realize that it didn't do it, it's not enough. And now, you know, you're, you're gonna have to do some, some deeper inner work.
Harper (25:15):
You have put a lot of this energy and everything that you've been going through into verses And you published a book last year. Was it last year or 2020? It
Melissa (25:24):
Was 2020.
Harper (25:26):
It was 2020. Wow. Lucky you. Um, <laugh>.
Melissa (25:31):
But I have a new one that'll be coming out next year.
Harper (25:34):
Oh, I can't wait to discuss this. Yay. Um, when you put this book together and you were starting to pitch it, you were told memoirs with versus Don't Sell. Steph and I are both aspiring memoirists and we constantly hear about the behind the scenes of the publishing industry and what works and what works, what doesn't work, and what's not allowed. And basically all the red tape that is preventing us from going, Oh, we really wanna do this and do it tomorrow. Yep. So can you tell us what that experience was like when everyone was turning you down, when you clearly have a name and a brand behind you, and what made you to continue to move on and self-publish?
Melissa (26:14):
Oh my gosh, that's a great story. And, and in the end, it turns out that everything that I've truly done from my soul has been rejected by mainstream society. So, um, when I look back and, and that's the funny story in the end, but yeah, so I had been contacted by a bunch of publishers actually in the, maybe like five years before I came out with Lifelines to publish a book. Now they wanted it to be a book on parenting, which I will never publish a book on parenting because I am no expert. And I made every mistake in the book, and I would never purport to be a parenting expert. So that will never happen. And then of course they wanted all the little anecdotes in behind the scenes from listen, Doug and the, you know, the, the great stories and the, and um, I always said no because I knew it just, it didn't come from here.
(27:05):
That was ego, you know, that was, that was up there. And we never did those ego, ego articles and ego things. Um, but you know, after I came out and I share my story and I, I knew that I wanted to compile because the verses uh, had been rejected. You know, when I was in my twenties and, and Melissa and Doug failed and we were going to go back to college. I, we both Doug and I applied to graduate school and I was wanted to be, um, a poet and teach poetry and get an mfa and I applied to a really mediocre program with no accolades and no US news and World Report rankings. And I got rejected. Um, and, and the, you know, the head of the department said that my writing was stupid and foolish and not up to the caliber of the department.
(27:56):
So my verses had been rejected and that rejection was so painful to me that I didn't write a verse for three decades. Um, I really felt like, well, they're just stupid and they're just whatever, something. Um, the irony is I channeled that very same philosophy into making the toys. So I took all that, that despair and anger and bitterness and, and confusion over why these simple verses that had saved my soul wouldn't be accepted by society. You know, I channeled it into making the toys, but it was nonetheless super painful. So when I, um, finally came out, I was like, I'm going to, you know, take all these verses, take all my journal writings, take all my reflections that took me from darkness to light and put it in a, in a book. So, um, there had been a bunch of literary agents that had contacted me and one of them contacted me and said, I would love, and she was really well known.
(28:57):
She had done, um, all her books were bestsellers and bestselling authors and she was, you know, in Manhattan and one of the most, um, mo most sought after literary agents. And she came to Westport and she set days with me and we, I just loved her. And, um, we talked about what the book would be and I thought it was weird we were talking about it because like the book was gonna be the book, like it was already kind of written, right? I had it all. I was just compiling it and she was like, Maybe you'll put this in it. And I was kind of like, Yeah, maybe Ill, but I knew I wasn't <laugh>. So like, and I'm very dog like when I, you know, I see things in my head like I'm very dogmatic about the way I do things. Um, so she said, Well, when you're finished your first chapter, like send it to me.
(29:44):
So I was like, okay. And then in the next two months I read, wrote the whole book. Like I just, cuz it was like my, so it was like the floodgate had opened and I wrote 24 7, I slept like an hour a night and I just, maybe it was three months. The whole thing came out. And um, I thought, oh my gosh, she's gonna be so excited because instead of sending her a chapter, I'm gonna send her the entire book finished. And it was like 800 pages. It was like ridiculous. So I send her the whole book and I'm so ex I'm like tingling. I'm like, she is going say this is going to be like, so many is gonna change lives. It's gonna be a best seller. And I don't hear from her for like days and maybe a couple weeks. And I'm starting to think this is kind of weird.
(30:31):
And then she writes me a letter, which is again, other than the rejection from grad school, it was one of the most painful things I ever read. And she basically said that, um, she said, How dare basically, how dare you send me the entire book without checking with me first because this is nothing like I was expecting you to write and it's absolutely never going to sell. Uh, so, you know, my suggestion is we start from scratch and go from there. And I was so like, again, every time this happens, I don't know why, maybe it's just I do have a little optimism in me. I was so shocked when I read that that I couldn't even speak for like three days. And I didn't even tell Doug because I was so ashamed. I was like, Here we go again. This is what came, it came so naturally right from my soul on the page and here like basically the number one literary agent is telling me nobody wants to read it, Melissa.
(31:42):
Uh, and that was so painful. So after about three days, I was like, what am I gonna do? I have to tell Doug, um, I got up the courage to tell Doug, I'm like, Doug, she hated it. And you know, I was like really emotional and even get emotional thinking about it. Um, I gave him the letter and he read it and he started laughing, like hysterically laughing as he read it. And I was like, What? Why are you laughing at me? I was getting, he's like, Melissa, did you think she was gonna say anything different? Like this is your verses were rejected, your toys were rejected by like the mainstream, You know, even though, you know, we've sold over a billion units of toys now, uh, everything you've done that has emanated authentically from your soul has been rejected. Why would this be any different?
(32:34):
And I thought about it and I was like, Oh my gosh, you're absolutely right. And he, he said, We don't need her. We did our toys by ourselves. We've done everything by ourselves. We are going to publish this on our own. And he was like, you know, Blanker <laugh>. And, um, so I, that night I wrote her, I said, you know, basically thank you but no thank you. I'm doing my book. Like it came out naturally. And and ironically she wrote me later and she was like, Well we can work with that. I was like, No, actually we're not working with that. I'm gonna do this book exactly as I want. And then I went even more the extreme. I made it, you know, have photographs in it and like the cost of it was such that it would've been a $50 book, but we ate all the margin which we wouldn't have been able to do with a publisher.
(33:24):
And we had it come out for like a really low price. So I did it completely my way. And the truth was I wasn't trying to make a best seller. That was the truth. And that's where I made the mistake. It was my mistake because I hired a agent that handles best selling books. The truth was I've sold a billion units of toys. Like I've sold millions of things that this was the last thing I wanted to sell millions of. I wanted to touch a handful of people a lot rather than millions of people a little. And I didn't care if three people read this, if it saved their lives, that was gonna be enough for me. So I ended up coming out with it on my own and I was so thrilled when on its own, just from a lot of the, you know, pr I did it hit number one on Amazon and uh, cuz we didn't do the traditional channels so we couldn't get on the New York Times bestseller cuz you have to do it very in a certain, uh, specific way.
(34:29):
But that made my day not because I needed the ego boost, but it made me so proud that I didn't sort of take the easy way out that I said, No, I'm gonna do it my way or no way. And, um, it, it just, it was another lesson that when you do it your own way, you know it's a good thing. And hey, have I sold millions? Absolutely not. It's not even remotely that type of book. Do some people buy it and say, what the heck is this? This is <laugh>. It makes no sense. But have I gotten those letters that say like, this book saved my life. I do. And um, and that makes it worthwhile for me. Sorry, that was really longwinded.
Stephanie (35:18):
No, I thi I think that story is so important. Um, so thank you for sharing it. I, I, I could listen to more of it actually personally, but I, I think one of the things that, you know, you talk about, so you published this book by yourself and it was your authentic self that got rejected and you had had these examples of that in your life. Um, and you know, you are a parent, right? And so you probably could see your kids go through, you know, finding who they are as they're growing up and you know, whether it's skinning their knees or not getting the grade they wanted or you know, all of the trials and tribulations of what it means to grow up. And you went through that big and public and are still going through it. And so looking back now, as painful as your journey may have been, uh, you know, these are, because you have talked about how hard, how hard that was in living that life, What would you tell, you know, how do you, how do you think about how necessary it was? Was there any other journey you could have been on to get you here?
Melissa (36:31):
Wow, that's a great question. No, I mean we all have to make the only way out is through is what I say. And the truth was what we resist persists. You know, you can do all the little cliches about it. You have to go inward and face it. And until you do that, there is, and the funny thing is, we resist it because we're so terrified of via this. But the truth is, when I finally made that journey inward and like accepted that I was sort of that darkness at its at its core, I'm an existential nihilist. But the truth was, I was also someone who like can cry at a sunset in a blank and feel such profound joy at so many moments of each day. And I realized, Melissa, you're not all darkness. That's what I thought. You're just a full spectrum and you go a little bit deeper down and a little bit further up.
(37:30):
And I was like, I can't believe you wasted like 40 years being terrified to do that. Because when I did it, it required the assistance of a therapist cuz it was dark. But then I came back up and I've stayed pretty much back up. So I think I realized that we all are so terrified of that and I think it's made me, you know, a little late for some of my kids. But I was always terrified of them facing their, their, their sadness because I knew that it, it almost killed me. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, and anytime they face sadness, I'd be the first one to be like, Why are you sad? And let's fix it right away. I was very uncomfortable with their being sad. And my daughters would say all the time, I just wanna be sad mom. Like, let me be sad. And I couldn't, I could not tolerate other people's sadness.
(38:28):
So it's still really hard for me because my trigger is that they're going to do something dire. Like I, well like I did, but I'm, I understand now that we all need to face our sadness and that I can't fix someone else's sadness. I can be there as a shoulder to lean on and I can say, I'm here if you need me, but if they don't want me and they wanna wallow in their sadness, I have to let them. So I think that has been a tremendous, uh, learning for me. And one I'm still, I have to practice it continually cuz it's the hardest thing as a parent to do.
Harper (39:08):
That's huge. And it sounds like you've used lifelines and what you've built with lifelines to maybe, uh, maybe some level of responsibility that you feel that you didn't give to your kids, that you're giving to other people who are feeling sad and allowing them to show their emotions and you holding space for them, which is so powerful. I know that. Yeah. If you wanna say something,
Melissa (39:33):
The, the other thing that I really learned that, and I try not to sound too like pedantic because I can come off as that when I know that like the way someone is is doing it might not be in the best interest of their child. But you know, as parents we put such expectations on our children and you know, there there's no heavier burden for a child than a great potential. And I think we want them to be successful and to be seen as genius and be seen as the best. And we don't realize the pressure we put on them by labeling them and by, you know, saying you're so amazing. That's incredible because all it does is it puts expectations on them that ultimately become too great. So, you know, I've also learned now the hard way that, you know, we want our kids, if we want our kids to be happy and fulfilled and and content, we have to just let them find their own way a little bit. We can't tell them where to go and where to use their talents and that they need to be in that AP class when maybe they don't wanna be in that AP class. Like if you, you know, you, yes, you guide them a little, but if you let them call the shots and figure it out for themselves, they're gonna be all the more stronger for it.
Stephanie (41:04):
Thank you for that. I needed to hear that as a parent of a junior <laugh>,
Melissa (41:09):
It can really wreak havoc.
Stephanie (41:12):
It can. Yes. And, and especially because you know what, what one person has individually understood about themselves isn't always shared by everyone else in their life. And so the pressures I'm sure for you, when you went through this revelation as to who you were, there were probably people in your life that no longer fit with who you really truly became.
Melissa (41:43):
We call it pruning in our practice. <laugh>. So I think, yeah, if you think about yourself as having a certain vibrational frequency and you know, mine rose quite a bit, right? Cuz I'm, I'm aspiring to transcend my, my small self and connect to sort of that greater humanity. And I'm no longer in the, you know, the, the other real thing that's happened is I'm no longer my story anymore. I'm past my story. Like I don't need to talk about, you know, walking around with a bottle of pills in my pocket. I did for a little while. I'm past that now, now I am just vibing my truth and helping others do the same. So my level, my frequency has risen and now, you know, I, I had to change the people I hung out with a bit because I wanna be with folks who are at my frequency or higher and can help me aspire to that, that growth that I, that I want.
(42:41):
And it's challenging in your life, right? Because you know, some of those are obligatory and you and you need to be part of those cuz they're family or they're, they're people you work with. Um, so you of course do it gratefully, but I think others when you can choose and, and I know because I'm so sensitive that I can very easily be, be brought down uh, if I'm, I'm with someone who is sort of a cup half empty, which is te you know, who I was for so many years. So I have to be really careful about being with those folks who, who lift up my, my spirit.
Harper (43:17):
I love that so much and I really relate to it. I also think Covid did that to a lot of us of, you know, whittling down our circles and realizing who's really important to us and what relevance they have in our lives. You mentioned you have a new book coming out. Can you share with us more about that and what led you to write a second book?
Melissa (43:36):
Yes. So when I went on that journey inward and accepted myself in totality, you know, I realized something profound, which was that I'm not just darkness, I'm this full spectrum of emotion. But having done this holistically, I was then faced with another kind of big issue because I knew that at any moment I could either be sort of flying off in the boundless, expansive white space like that manic creativity and get lost up there and not wanna eat or drink or sleep. Cuz I love it up there. It is like really blissful. Or I can sometimes go down to the bowels of despair, that dark nihilism and not come back like it's very extreme for me. And it can happen a little tr someone can say one thing or I can see something and I can go there. So I was at this loss like, what am I going to do?
(44:32):
Like how do I sort of maintain my equanimity? How do I keep my balance in the face of both those extremes? And I basically crafted a practice for me that was the way that I would maintain my, my sanity and not fall what I call too far below the line or too far above the line because basically we all have sort of our homeostasis line and mine's a little below mid middle cuz I, I kind of am that nihilistic. So I need even more of that pulling upward. So that practice, I, I first crafted it in my head, then actually I worked with my psychotherapist who really is the one who helped me take that initial journey, um, into, into crafting it into something that could be psychotherapeutic as a tool for folks. It's, it's holistic, but it's psychotherapeutic. And then, um, I had the fortune of working with this amazing woman who's a PhD in learning sciences and she writes curriculums because I started to talk about a lot of the facets of this practice, which basically it spans all our areas of wellbeing.
(45:46):
It's physical wellbeing, mental wellbeing, emotional wellbeing, and spiritual wellbeing. So it's covering our body, our mind, our heart, and our soul. And really it's about meaning, it's about crafting a life well lived, which I now know is hard work. We think we're born and it's gonna be like butterflies, rainbows, white picket fences and cute little shutters. And it's not, and unfortunately no one tells us that. So we go through life like wondering why it's not what we expected and why life is so darn hard. Well, life is hard. And if people told us that at the beginning and we had a practice to help us when times got hard, then it wouldn't be so hard. So now we've turned this into a workbook, which, um, it's, I'm using a little bit of my Melissa and Doug playfulness and it is for adults, but it's going to have stickers and it's gonna have some fun like doodles. And it's all about how do we craft this unique practice for ourselves. So it's, you know, you go through the workbook and you craft this daily deliberate practice so that you can take care of yourself in every way and ultimately find meaning.
Stephanie (47:12):
Linda, it's such a great time for that because as you know, we can read reports of, and we can see it in our families and our communities and our friendships. You know, certainly the pandemic was a terrible time is a terrible time, but it's a, has been an accelerant, you know, pouring gasoline on any mental health challenge that people were having before. And so having tools seems to be needed more than ever. And so good for you for
Melissa (47:47):
Taking, I think during covid your
Stephanie (47:50):
Beautiful skill at playfulness and creativity, you know, and, and crafting something that's useful and, and who knows where it goes from there. Um,
Melissa (48:00):
Yeah, you know, I think during covid so many folks lost what they thought had brought them meaning, but then they realized that that actually didn't bring them meaning it was just routine. So they fell into, that's what was so fascinating about the response when I came out because I knew that existential nihilism, you know, only a, a few suffer from that true nihilism, but an existential meaning crisis was pretty much like almost all of society who
Stephanie (48:36):
Didn't go through that, who hasn't been going through that.
Melissa (48:38):
I exactly. So was my meaning. Yes, yes. Here. Uh, so I think it, it kind of wiped all our slates clean and for some of us that was amazing, right? Cause some of us, the, the, you know, freedom is an incredible thing that we get to choose. But for others, anx anxiety is the dizziness of freedom. You know, that freedom can create tremendous anxiety because suddenly they're like, Why am I here when, what I'm, I don't like what I'm doing now. How do I craft this, this new life? So I think that's what this practice is for and that's what we're, we're taking it, we're taking it to the streets and we're taking it to organizations and universities and, uh, anyone who feels like they're kind of a little bit untethered in needs that, that, uh, that beacon.
Harper (49:32):
So beautiful. I love this. Melissa, I could talk to you all day and I know Steph could as well. I would love to continue this for hours and hours. But one final question for you as we wrap up here. When you hear the term good enough for now, what does that evoke for you?
Melissa (49:50):
Wow, that's a deep one. I mean, I think that's the very definition of being present, right? Because good enough for now means I'm okay as I am at this very moment. And I'm going to make the most of this very moment without any thought toward, you know, the future or the past. I'm just okay right now.
Stephanie (50:21):
Amazing answer <laugh> made for that.
Melissa (50:27):
That's beautiful.
Stephanie (50:28):
So Melissa, where can people find your work lifelines, your books? Where, where can they learn more about the work that you're doing?
Melissa (50:38):
So we have a new website called lifelines@work.com. And we have a whole host of workshops now that we are bringing to organizations. Um, and some are on play, some are on sharing your authentic story, and we're getting leaders to actually like, share their truth to their, their corporations, which has been incredible. Like people's sharing some pretty, pretty deep secrets. Um, and I think the more that we can get folks to realize that that isn't a form of weakness, that's the greatest courage in, you know, in, in life is sharing your truth. And I think until we all can share our truth, we won't be fully free.
Harper (51:31):
Wow. Thank you Melissa. That was so wonderful.
Melissa (51:34):
Aw. Thank you so much for having me.
Stephanie (51:37):
Yes, thank you.
