Share Your Story, Find Yourself with Devan Sandiford
In this episode of Good Enough for Now, we hear from Devan Sandiford, a published writer and four-time New York City Moth StorySLAM champion, about using the power of spoken word storytelling as a conversation with inner truths that empowered him to feel agency in making life choices that revealed identity hidden by silence over family trauma.
Tune in to learn more about the positive impact of choosing not to hide anymore, being your honest and vulnerable self, and how protecting others from the truth is not always the most effective way to love someone.
LISTEN NOW
three reasons why you should listen to this episode:
Explore the freedom that comes with being open and vulnerable
How to show up as yourself and be okay with uncomfortable conversations
Recognize that protecting others isn't necessarily the most effective way to love someone and keep them from harm
Highlights
We catch up with Devan in Brooklyn where he lives with his family. He is a writer, storyteller and founder of Unreeling Storytelling, a narrative platform for the ‘unraveling of repressed perspectives of people who have been quietly waiting to speak but urgently needing to be heard.’
We catch up with Devan as he is in the midst of a recent career transition that followed a previous pivot from engineering to creative storyteller. His first reinvention emerged from the need to reveal his experience with trauma and racism. Devan discusses how often the tendency is to run and hide from hard conversations and truths, yet to move past that aspect of oneself opens you up to showing more authentic aspects of yourself.
I think the day that I stopped trying to hide then it became very clear that I could be myself and being myself means that I could show different parts of myself. All of us have many different identities and characteristics and so I think the fear that I had to talk with my family about some childhood traumas I think really opened me up to step out and try different things.
The catalyst that propelled Devan to take the step and finally share his stories on stage was answering the question of “What other ways can I show up just as myself without trying to make everything look beautiful for everyone?” He dove in deep, performing deeply personal stories on stage in front of an audience of strangers. One such story involved the shooting of his Uncle by police as witnessed by other family members in his grandmother’s front yard, a house where he lived as a young child.
So the ‘going to share’ on the stage, while it was absolutely scary and terrifying and I was shaking …what was harder for me was sharing the stories with my family. I could get to a point where I could share them with my sons and like just knowing them that they're like accepting of them but like being able to take these moments back to my mom and my dad and my siblings was the hardest thing for me.
After getting the courage to discuss his Uncle’s death and his family’s experience of it, he realized how powerful going through a deeply painful experience in uncovering pain can lead to an incredibly beautiful moment instead of silence in the face of loss.
Keeping things from people actually being the thing that hurt them more than anything else. And so the complete about face as it relates to actually what it means to love is to tell people the truth even if it's gonna hurt them at times.
…for me it feels like I can breathe more and it doesn't feel like I'm quite as restricted in what I'm saying and what I'm feeling in my body.
And so the reason I share stories in general is for other people to share stories and the mission I think was accomplished in them sharing stories back with me and my mom reading the piece.
We tend to push our stories and experiences aside, robbing us of the opportunity to share vital parts of our life experiences with others.
But I thought it was so telling about the ways in which we have so many moments from our lives and we sometimes just package them away instead of like pulling it out and looking at the different frames of our life. And so really thinking about opening up and getting people to slow down and consider the moments of their lives that matter to them and to not keep them from others to share them.
Devan beautifully describes the differences between the value of the spoken word as compared to the written word, the former is one that requires less filtering and barriers.
I think for me and the reason that I've continued to do live storytelling, without notes is less of a barrier for me to just share whatever is inside of me….And knowing that pretty much anytime you share you're gonna be hurting someone is kind of a truth that I've experienced and when I get onto the stage, there's less filtering whatever it is that I'm saying is gonna come out. And some people may still be harmed in the process, but there is a certain freedom in that.
Rejection is part of the process of life, and in finding a publisher for your written work.
And so it's only been recently that I'm starting to move my way through that and get back to a place where my words need to be shared and also deserve to be heard. And the process of continuing to work on it and continuing to find the truth in my story and to almost unedited the editing to the place where I can get to just really bringing it all out onto the page.
When you are still in the writing process, allow yourself the freedom to release to the page what needs to come out.
Not to edit while you're writing. To just write exactly what it is that you're feeling, what it is that the story is about. Drop into the scene, bring in all the details, and then after you've done that, opening up the space to edit from a place of like, I've got everything out.
What Good Enough For Now means to devan:
It evokes a feeling of being connected to myself and that I'm enough like in it of itself without having to have any more accomplishments in my life. And so probably trying to get to a space where I am enough and I love myself and I don't need to be something other than I am and live to other people's expectations. I think interestingly enough it feels like I wanna be good enough forever. I find myself always trying to strive and accomplish someone else's goals and if I can just be enough for myself, then I don't ever have to keep doing that over and over. So I love the title and I love the feeling of “I am good enough forever”.
ABOUT
Devan Sandiford is a writer, storyteller, and founder of Unreeling Storytelling, a Brooklyn-based storytelling show providing a platform for repressed perspectives of people of color, women, and other marginalized individuals. His stories have been featured in the Washington Post, The Moth Podcast, National Public Radio station KNKX, Speak Up Storytelling, Love Hurts Podcast, Open Hands Podcast, The Womanity Project, Writing Class Radio, and Intersxctions Podcast.
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Stephanie (00:04):
Hi and welcome to Good Enough For now, we are Your hosts. I'm Stephanie Kruse.
Harper (00:10):
I'm Harper Spero. And our show is for people who wanna make meaning from life's detours so they can find the creative resilience to move forward.
Stephanie (00:18):
We'll explore stories of transition, false starts, unexpected U-turns, and other moments of reinvention that happen as we move through life. Each week we'll bring you a fresh perspective from our own lives and share insights from guests we bring on the show.
Harper (00:33):
Join us when you need a moment to get out of your head. Feel us alone and maybe a little bit more
Stephanie (00:39):
Together. Together.
Harper (00:50):
One of the really interesting things about storytelling is this concept of what impact you can have on somebody's life in them reading your work or listening to your And today's guest, Devon really talked about that concept and how impactful it's to share his story, have the spoken word, and then have people coming up to him and engaging with his story and wanting to share their story with him as well. And the impact that you can have on somebody through your words, not just the experience in real time but the after effect. And I think it's just such a powerful tool for helping people make change in their lives.
Stephanie (01:28):
Yeah, he's a really impressive and creative force and listening to him talk about his transition from more of a traditional career to a creative one and how that's impacted his ability to deal with some of the trauma in his life and also be a parent to his sons, I found really compelling. And I think we can all relate to being able to look at events in our lives through a different lens and deciding maybe what we're gonna do after that story is told is not gonna be the same as what happened to us. And I loved how he talks about emerging from some of that. Let's get into it.
Harper (02:11):
Devin Sandaford is a writer, storyteller and founder of Unwilling Storytelling, a Brooklyn based storytelling show that provides a platform for a press perspectives, a people of color, women and other marginalized individuals stories have been featured in the Washington Post, the Moth podcast, national public radio, writing class, radio and others. Welcome Devon. We're so happy to have you here today. Thank
Devan (02:38):
You so much for having me. I'm really excited.
Stephanie (02:40):
Oh, it's so great to have you joining us. And I know both Harper and I had been thinking of you as a guest because of your transition in your career from electrical engineer to slam poet and writer. But we can't wait to hear more about other transitions that might be going on on in your life. So the first question we always start out with is where are you in your life right now?
Devan (03:06):
So many transitions. It's hard to answer that question and I feel like right now in my life I amm in just in a place where I finally understand the agency I have to make choices to change in life and to speak to the engineering life that I stayed in for like 15 years. I wanna say a good 10 to eight of those years were somewhat unhappy and kind of just like sitting in it because it was a good profession, it was a good paying job that I had. Um, but not necessarily super aligned with like who I am as a person and creativity wise. And so I would say the most central part of like where I am in my journey is just knowing that I have choices to choose what I wanna to do in life. I just took a new job two weeks ago, so a lot going on.
Harper (03:51):
What do you think to you realizing you had the ability to choose? Sounds like it's acknowledgement.
Devan (03:58):
I would say more than anything I was like trying to hide. I think the day that I stopped trying to hide then it became very clear that like I could be myself and being myself means that I could show different parts of myself. All of us have many different identities and characteristics and so I think the fear that I had to talk with my family about some childhood traumas I think really opened me up to step out and try different things. Whether it was standing on the stage to start sharing my story or like trying new jobs, I think all led from that place. And probably having kids. Yeah, having kids too I'd say.
Harper (04:36):
Yeah, that makes sense. What did lead you to that transition?
Devan (04:42):
I think the first thing really was having kids and like seeing the reflection of myself in them and the questions they would ask me and kind of forced me to confront about myself. And then from there, probably the first time when I decided to write and how I was like really caught up with wanting to like put out the perfect piece. Like just one piece took me probably a year and a half to write and edit and edit and edit and look for synonyms on this one piece. And wanting it to just be perfect and submitting it places and having people reject it over and over was really frustrating for me. And the idea of like what's wrong with me and what's like wrong with life, I thought it was like, you know, you work really hard and you try and do the best you can and then that's when people will respond.
(05:29):
And I got really frustrated to the point I just wanted to do something. I don't care what it is, let me just write something that's just for me, get it out and like completely not care about it. And I wrote a piece on the way to my son's juujitsu in the city from Brooklyn where I lived to Manhattan where his jiujitsu was. So 30 minutes on the train and 30 minutes back and ended up sending out this piece shortly after and it got picked up. And actually how we're connected Harper got picked up at writing class radio and then shortly after at the Washington Post. And so that was like the first moment of understanding, really understanding. I had read it in books but people aren't really interested in perfect. They're like so much more interested in authentic and just like vulnerable. And so that probably sparked me down the path of like, okay, what other ways can I show up just as myself without trying to make everything like look beautiful for everyone?
Stephanie (06:22):
As you were talking kind of reminded me that the expectations that we have for ourselves and how we go about maybe making our first idea of what success looks like, right? So perhaps that was like your early career, right? Well, oh here's the box I'm supposed to be in and mm-hmm <affirmative>. If I take these steps and I work hard, I'll get some reward for that, whether that be a good paying job, a stable life, you know, maybe I find a partner if that's in the cards. But then you come to some realization about are you living who you are truly. And you know, you mentioned being a father and the mirror kind of the reflection point coming up for you and you could have done a lot of things with that, right? Like you could have said, oh you know, I'm gonna just tell stories to my kids, I'm gonna tell stories to my friends, but you made it louder than that and bigger than that and more seen than that, which I imagine was really, really scary at some level. What compelled you over the line?
Devan (07:25):
I think for me <laugh>, I hide and run a lot. So <laugh> the going to share on the stage, while it was absolutely scary and terrifying and like I was shaking, I still often should, as terrifying as that was actually what was harder for me was sharing the stories with my family. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, I could get to a point where I could share them with my sons and like just knowing them that they're like accepting of them but like being able to take these moments back to my mom and my dad and my siblings was the hardest thing for me. And so stepping on the stage was a little bit of running in the essence of like, oh I can share with these strangers some of the things I could, you know, see this is actually painful for people to listen to cuz it's hard moments but they didn't have to like live through it. And so I had been putting off for a really long time telling my parents these things that I knew were like hurtful for me and what actually be painful for them to hear. And it took me basically two years of sharing my story on the stage before I could bring the stories back to my family and like have the conversations about the things that I'd never talked about. So it was scary to get on the stage and even scarier to tell these things to my family.
Harper (08:38):
You and I have spent time sending each other essays back and forth as you mentioned we met through writing class radio, which podcast and they have writing classes and just immediately hit it off. And I think about some the essays that you've written that I'm sure some have been published and others are waiting for book and out into the world, some of these and the challenges that you've been through with your family, what kinda reaction did you get when you did finally feel like you have the courage to to say, right, I'm putting this out into I should address with people.
Devan (09:13):
Yeah, putting it out in the world and having other people respond in such a positive way was like, oh this is great. And then I can remember still being in my apartment in Brooklyn shortly after George Floyd was murdered. Having the, I don't even know if I would call it courage, but like deciding to call my mom and you know, even still running a little bit in the calling of her like I called to apologize for something but I really wanted to have the conversation about all the things that I, I was writing about all the things that we hadn't talked about. And so my mom's youngest brother was shot and killed by the police when I was six years old right outside of our home. And my mom, my dad and my grandma all watched my uncle's last moments and for me and my siblings, we were away when it happened.
(09:59):
And being the youngest in my family, I had a very clear understanding that like bringing this up would cause my mom to have to relive this moment and it would be painful. And as the youngest it was like almost how dare you bring this up when you were the one that was furthest removed from it and probably the least affected in my mind. And so the day that I decided to FaceTime my mom and have the conversation, I was knowing that in my body that it would be painful for her. And the response that I got from her was actually she was really open to having the conversation. It took us a while to get into the heart of it but we did talk for like three hours and my mom in the moment when we got to the period of like talking about her brother actually wasn't as difficult as I thought.
(10:44):
What was really challenging was uh, the moment she talked about what her mom did when it happened, every time somebody would come over to the house, my grandma would retell the story over and over and every single time my grandma told the story over and over, it was as if my mom had to relive it. And that was the first time my mom started to cry. That was the first time I seen my mom cry, I should say. I'm sure she's cried many times. And it was like really hard for me to receive that response because that was, you know, exactly what I was doing in that moment forcing her to retell and to relive this moment. So it was really painful for me. Even the idea of what you said about the expectations of what we have for ourselves, for me I expected myself to be like the peacekeeper of my family, the person who always makes everyone happy.
(11:28):
And here I was like making my mom really live in this painful moment and all the things that happened after that, after the moment she like started to tear up, informed me to like continue going on. She seemed like it was like something she needed to do, she started sharing more stories about them and at the end of our three hour conversation I was ready to get off. Not cuz I was like mom, alright, time to get off. But um, it was in the pandemic. I have two sons. I knew that I had to take care of them the next day. At this point it was um, probably like one or two in the morning and so I knew I had to wake up and so I was ready to get off and my mom stopped me and said like, you thought you got your writing from your dad?
(12:08):
And ended up sharing a piece she had written about me and my brother, my sons and my brother's son and her brother. Um, and kind of the fear that she had and the like hopes that she had a really powerful moment where we had to go through that like really painful experience to get to this really beautiful moment that I'd probably been waiting for since I was six. So the responses that I got were good for my mom. I'd say the rest of my family were not <laugh> as happy. It took me a longer time to talk to everybody and it was another really long conversation and all of them initially were on the side of like, why are you doing this? Kind of like you need to go to therapy. I think at one point there was a particular person of my family who said I need Jesus.
(12:55):
Cause a part of my journey was uh, also giving up Christianity. So a lot of blame, a lot of shame, a lot of like feelings of something is wrong with you. And I came to a point in that conversation where we were joking that I'm not a big person who cusses or anything curses like that, but inside of me I was just like, fuck all of these people, I don't need them anymore. Like I'm just gonna do this because it's what's right for me and for my sons and I'm gone like I need to talk to these people ever again. And it was my brother who after it was like the bigger family, like my uncle, my cousins people who were in in um, Florida at the time my uncle was killed after the rest of the people signed off, my brother asked me to stay on longer and he had some just questions about like, how come it has to be like either hurting mom or hurting my sons.
(13:44):
And just in the process of like opening up about that feeling of knowing that my words and like the reliving of these experiences was gonna be harmful for someone got us to a place where they were like, okay, well what do you need from us? And really opened up, they allowed me to read the first chapter of my book to them and again just my brother, my sister and my parents telling me stories about things they remembered from that time period and the things that I'd forgotten because I was so young and also because I put them outta my mind. So the response turned out to be good in the end, but it was a lot of pain to get there.
Stephanie (14:17):
Hmm. You know, I think sometimes when there's difficult circumstances, traumas, things to talk about and deal with, there's this idea, and I can say this as a parent, sometimes I think you feel like you're protecting someone. Mm-hmm <affirmative> by not talking about it. That somehow you know, that's loving is letting it just be dark. But the shame of it, the pain of it just grows right when it's in the dark, it actually mm-hmm <affirmative> what you did was the ultimate act of love in so many ways that awareness, you know, doesn't just happen overnight nor were you done. Right. Just because you had that conversation. So since that time, how have you found either the relationships with your own family, you know, your immediate family and your wife and your sons or to your work or even to people who listen to your work changed?
Devan (15:12):
Yeah, I think it comes right back to what you said about what it means to love someone. The idea of protecting people and the silence being a way of protection and understanding that to be like wildly untrue and in a way that I feel a lot of shame in what I was doing. Keeping things from people actually being the thing that hurt them more than anything else. And so the complete about face as it relates to actually what it means to love is to tell people the truth even if it's gonna hurt them at times. And so in relation to my work and probably even connecting back to the decisions to like change jobs and try new things comes to the point of like, yeah, this actually is gonna be hard news for my work to hear that I'm gonna be taking a new job.
(15:58):
Um, at the same time it's something that's beneficial for me and in the long run I think beneficial for the world and the community that I impact. And so I was trying to remember who said it to me, but when I started talking about being a peacekeeper and a peacemaker in my family, they said the line about like what it means to be a peacekeeper actually means withholding portions of the truth. And for whatever reason that was like the thing that really resonated within me to feel like I had been doing a, I mean I've been doing my best but I hadn't necessarily been doing the work that I thought I was doing. And so it has changed the relationship with my family, like my immediate family, my sons and my wife because of all the things I was withholding. And so now I would have conversations with my sons before but it was very like informative.
(16:47):
Mm-hmm <affirmative> like I know information and I'm gonna pass it down to you. I obviously also loved my sons and was intimate with them, but the level of vulnerability and to like call things out about myself has increased every year that they've been alive I'd say. Um, which has hopefully also opened them up to learn earlier that they don't have to be perfect to exist in the world. And I think the way that it's impacted my relationship with the rest of my family, it's been a little bit different and tricky. We don't necessarily talk a ton because we didn't have that built into like our relationship of sorts. You know, some people talk to their parents every day, some every week and things like that. We didn't have that before. And so that portion hasn't really changed the frequency at which we talk. But when we do talk, I don't know about how my parents experience it, but for me it feels like I can breathe more and it doesn't feel like I'm quite as like restricted in what I'm saying and what I'm like feeling in my body.
(17:44):
And my, actually my wife would comment before a lot whenever I talk to my parents that I would hold, hold my breath a lot. And so I don't know about for anyone else, but I feel a lot freer in the things that I'm sharing and like don't necessarily have to live up to a certain expectation. And even I have two tattoos and like folks are deeply religious and so like for a long time I would wear long sleeve shirts even in like the dead heat of Southern California desert weather. And so now I just have the freedom to like, you know, show up in a short sleeve t-shirt and this is like a part of who I am and it feels like they also feel freer in it. I mean the things that we talk about every once in a while they'll give expectations of things between the differences of our lives. Um, I live in New York City, they live in a suburban town in California and what life is like supposed to be. And so I think they still have fears for me, but the communication we have is, I'd say more free.
Harper (18:40):
That's incredible. I think I've learned in recent years how you can, you know, change your own behaviors and when you think that your parents can unlearn or learn new things they can and they can learn by your example and you can lead by example. So I think that your real proof of that, you brought up something earlier in just navigating your family and I think about one of the first tops that we were ever in step with Elizabeth Eves in our writing class with Ruthie who, you know Devon? Mm-hmm <affirmative>, Ruthie Ackerman, a past guest of ours. And she talked about how if you're going to include people in your writing, in your storytelling, is it something where it's harmful that you're gonna be including them and if you're going to include them, does it actually move the story forward? Does it serve a real purpose?
(19:31):
Right. And I think you're an example here of your storytelling is you telling what's important about you and your family, but also the impact that your family story has had on your life and your future generations as well as how it can impact society and sort of understanding what it's like to live in your skin. Yeah. So I think it's really powerful to make those decisions and go, all right, I don't need this character in this essay because it really will potentially harm them and it really doesn't do anything for the story. But really making those conscious decisions of what's relevant and what's gonna actually be powerful and where you're just like wasting space and potentially gonna harm somebody.
Devan (20:13):
Yeah, that's a really great distinction. And I think for my family, because I had such a long period of playing the peacekeeper and the peacemaker that they at least knew that my intention wasn't to harm them. And so, you know, I was the one that called that family meeting on the zoom, it was actually on my birthday. I had decided that this was the way that I wanted to celebrate <laugh>
Harper (20:35):
Happy birthday to me, you guys better be uh, on best behavior here. My birthday,
Devan (20:42):
I text my whole family and just like, I don't know who wants to come on but this is what I wanna wanna talk about. If you wanna come on, come on. If not don't. And I kind of thought like, you know, some would, some wouldn't, but they all came on and it was interesting when I got to the place where I could finally share the things with my smaller family, my mom, I think one of the things that's hard for her and hard for all of us really is like being surprised by things. And so she asked like, you know, before I read it, what is it about? Is it about us? It is about me. And I'm, I was like, uh, yeah, yeah mom, it is about you. You know, clearly it's about me. But really being a six year old at that time and having my mom was a stay at home mom with me, she left her work for each of me and my siblings.
(21:28):
And so the story and a lot of what the story is is like me wanting to have that deeper connection with my mom and missing my mom just from the aspect of not being able to share these things. And so reason I share stories in general is for other people to share stories and the mission I think was accomplished in them sharing stories back with me and my mom reading the piece. My dad actually told a live story on one of my own reeling storytellings, the events that I have, something I had never really heard about his dad. So it was great to have that be the response. And it was interesting at the end, my dad was also joke, I don't know joking, but like he wanted my sister-in-law to then share one of the hardest things for her to live through. And so I was like, I don't, I don't think you can like request that of people <laugh>, but its kinda funny your turn. Exactly what it was like your turn. So,
Harper (22:16):
So you mentioning, can you share with our listeners who don't know you a little bit more abouting and the work that you're doing? Storytelling?
Devan (22:25):
Yeah, absolutely. Reeling storytelling. I had started early in 2020 before the pandemic hit me and a friend of mine, Jason Fulford, uh, my partner, he's Eric Garner's cousin. And so we both had so many levels of connection and so we wanted to have a storytelling event and community where we can just get together and share things that we've been kind of holding onto. And so we had started off with uh, I wanna say it was like eight people that we invited to share their stories. That particular theme was America Dreaming, um, and just inviting people to share the things that they hadn't been talking about or things that they were really meaningful to them. But the community in general and the idea of the name un reeling really came from another moment with my dad when I was in high school. He was our high school soccer coach, but he bought this camera and he would record all of the games or have my mom record all of the games.
(23:20):
But then he would um, package the tapes in our garage and our, my friends would ask like, oh can you, you know, have this made I had a really great goal or if it was basketball, like oh I had a really great game and I would ask my dad and he'd he'd be like, yeah, yeah. But he'd never actually get around to it. Not cuz he didn't want but he was really busy. But I thought it was uh, so telling about the ways in which we have like so many moments from our lives and we sometimes just package package them away instead of like pulling it out and like looking at the different frames of our life. And so really thinking about like opening up and getting people to slow down and consider the moments of their lives that matter to them and to not keep them from others to share them.
(24:01):
And so shortly after we had our first event, the pandemic hit and so we were like, oh man, that's terrible. We actually had an event planned for late March. Um, and so we were at the time when people were like, ah, is this a thing? Is this not? We were considering still having it and clearly ended up not so pushed us online, which was actually really cool. I had connected with somebody at the end of 2019 who had wanted me to start a storytelling community online. And so it was kind of an easy transition to doing it online and expanding the number of people that could interact with this. And so it's also how my dad was able to share for one of our events cuz he's in California wouldn't have been able to do it if it was in person only. So it's been great to have and and we've done a few shows and had a long pause because of all the weight that we were going through in 2020 and 2021. But yeah, it's just a great space to ask people to share the things that they've been holding onto or need to share.
Stephanie (25:00):
I guess what it reminds me of is, you know, the spoken word compared to the written word compared to a visual story, right? There are a lot of different ways to tell stories and for you whether by feedback from people who respond to your stories or the work that you're doing, what do you think makes the difference in that auditory present storytelling compared to the written word?
Devan (25:27):
I think for me and the reason that I've like continued to do live storytelling, you know, without notes is for one, it like is less of a barrier for me to just share whatever is inside of me. Um, when I get onto the page, there's so much of the old me that shows up and wanting to edit and to filter things out mm-hmm <affirmative> into like, you know, the reader doesn't need to know this and this is gonna hurt, you know, that person and I know this is gonna be harmful for this community. And knowing that like pretty much anytime you share you're gonna be hurting someone is, is kind of like a truth that I've experienced and when I get onto the stage, there's less filtering whatever it is that I'm saying is gonna come out. And some people may still be harmed in the process, but there is a certain like freedom in that.
(26:12):
And I think on the other end, the recipient as well can kind of get the sense of that vulnerability and at the end of many of the stories that I've shared, it's brought people to like find me afterwards and to tell me some of their deepest darkest secrets and things that they've never talked about. You know, people have come up to me and talked about their passing of their grandmothers or something that happened with their like spouse and just like things that I would not imagine any stranger to come up and tell me. And it's really because of them recognizing that I'm up there doing the same. And so I hope that the writing gets to a place where it is that same level for me and that when I read other people's works, yeah I get the sense that that can be done and it just takes me a little bit longer because I still have that voice in my head.
(27:00):
And I think another difference with the writing is that it allows people to like sit with it a bit longer when you're on the stage and you share it. Like let's say it's like a five minute story, it's like immediately on them. And for somebody who might be going through that same thing, it's like confront this now type of feeling and can feel almost abrasive in that way of like, how dare you call me out and like know that this is a part of my life <laugh>. Whereas like if you're reading it, you can honestly like pause and reread or like say I'm not gonna read this today. Like this is causing me to think too much about my own life. Um, and so I think uh, each medium seems to have the advantages that it has and maybe disadvantages that at periods depending on how you show up as the creator. So mm-hmm.
Harper (27:42):
<affirmative>, yesterday I met someone who teaches improv and I felt how my body tensed up just when she said the word improv. No, absolutely not. I want nothing to do with this. And when she talked about what it's that she did, even when I said define improv in your own words, I was like, oh yeah, that's more compelling. And so I just bring this up because I think you're right, we can with writing edit and edit and edit and edit and step away and get more input and step away and it can go on. As you said, it took you over a year wanting to publish something. I know Steph and I have tens of thousands of words in the same boat. And I think that there's something really powerful and freeing and also forgiving when you just get up on stage. Of course you're preparing to a certain degree mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but it's like whatever happens happens as opposed to should I cut that sentence or should I leave the sentence in on the written form? But I do know that you do still work on your writing. So can I ask where your book is at?
Devan (28:44):
You can absolutely ask where it's in addition to the book. One of the spaces where I have found that like level of freedom to write recently is like writing poetry and getting to a place where the words that come out when I'm doing the poetry are just like whatever I love and whatever I'm feeling. And probably removing the feeling of like this having to be perfect similar to like when I get on the stage. And so the book, I'm still working with my agent. We had gone out on submission to some editors and gotten back a string of rejections, which you know, is completely normal, but also challenging for me as it relates to like the pattern that I have. I was recently in a writing group and we talked about this and for me, when I feel like people don't wanna hear my story or if my story is something that's not supposed to be shared, I go into this place of like just hiding.
(29:37):
So somewhat in my writing and in even in showing up every day there's like, oh, I'm writing this but it's not going anywhere after those rejections. And so it's only been recently that I'm starting to like move my way through that and get back to a place of like, my words need to be shared and also deserve to be heard. And you know, is just the process of continuing to work on it and continuing to find the like truth in my story and to almost unedited the editing to the place where I can get to just mm-hmm. <affirmative> really bringing it all out onto the page. And I, I think some of that will probably be through poetry and the like learning of what it means to let words flow out of me versus struggling through every single word. Like I'm working through quicksand of sorts so I can almost feel the difference in my body as I'm going through the two different versions of writing.
(30:26):
And if I can associate it with anything, it really is the like preed in my mind that's like, you know, the editor's gonna say this, the editor's gonna say that, and not what am I gonna say and what's the story I'm trying to tell? And so I'm hoping to go back out on submission, come at the top of the year, send over some new material for my editor with a framing of the book that is more focused in on this maybe two, two and a half year portion of starting to share my story and getting to a place where I'm, uh, letting the things out. Um, before the framing that I had for the book really covered like the 30 years. A lot of the silence and the current version I think does get to the point of like, what does it mean to love kind of, you know, to what you've said, protecting others isn't necessarily the most effective way to love someone and keep them from harm.
Stephanie (31:20):
I love that you are experimenting and going with the flow state versus the inner critic editor state mm-hmm. <affirmative> and figuring out where the middle point is for you. You know, I think that's the sweet spot.
Devan (31:34):
Yeah. It's,
Stephanie (31:34):
It's hard though. You know, you write something so raw and personal and you spend years on it and the whole process is so subjective. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it feels like this, you know, we keep trying to cheerlead <laugh> all of our fellow writers. Yes. Cause it's painful
Harper (31:52):
<laugh>. It's, I kept just going like, it only takes one. It only takes one.
Devan (31:57):
Yes.
Harper (31:57):
It's such a, you know, old school industry that makes it so hard for quality writing from amazing people to get seen if you don't have some massive platform or you're not an influencer or celebrity. But as I said, I've read a lot of your work, I know it will get out into the world and it deserves to be out in the world. You mentioned at the top of the conversation, you're going through your own transitions right now. Can you speak a little bit towards where you're at now? New job, you said other things. Yeah. What's going on?
Devan (32:30):
I think the biggest thing is definitely a new job. I had just recently started a job at the Moth. I had been working there for a year and a half and I accepted a, a new job to work at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. So I accepted a position for senior communications officer, role story developer and writer. Something I was really excited about and actually wasn't looking for the job. It was a friend that had sent me a position from the Gates Foundation and I had done like an informational interview with her manager and she sent me over like the job description and invited me to apply. So the position really was more looking at the storytelling aspect of it. And I think this position for me and the reason I was so excited about it was the stories being the spark, the instigator for how we're gonna make change in the world. And so yeah, two weeks in what you said about improv Harper, I just got back from Foundation Week and we had a huge improv hour and a half session where we were doing, what is it called? Almost like whose line is it Anywhere type stuff. And I was just like, mm-hmm. <affirmative>, oh man, this is
Stephanie (33:41):
<laugh>. Oh,
Devan (33:42):
You know, once you get in it then it feels fine. You work your way through it. But there is definitely that, like what does it mean to like drop everything? And so it's a message that's been coming up over and over. I think the day that I have success in the writing is when it becomes almost like improv, which doesn't take away from editing, but not to edit while you're writing. To just write exactly what it is that you're feeling, what it is that the story is about. Drop into the scene, bring in all the details, and then after you've done that, opening up the space to edit from a place of like, I've got everything out. And as opposed to what I've often do, which is like, uh, they're not gonna like this, they're not gonna like that. How do I do this effectively? And leaving out the aspects that make the story the story. So,
Stephanie (34:29):
Well that's not only good for writing, I think it's good for showing up in life. Right? Yeah. Like that lesson applies all over the place. <laugh>.
Devan (34:35):
So I guess the two of you're gonna be it for improv
Stephanie (34:39):
On
Harper (34:40):
I'm good. <laugh> <laugh>. But it was interesting cause I was with a group of women and one of them said how she went with her husband to the improv class and her husband's really funny, so she expected him to be amazing and she said he sucked. <laugh> she said was so horrible and she was amazing and she never thought of herself as spotty or entertaining. Mm-hmm. So it was such proof that like this could extract something outta you that you don't even know that you have.
Devan (35:08):
Yes.
Harper (35:09):
That's really powerful.
Devan (35:10):
It's so
Harper (35:10):
Powerful and no, I'm not gonna do
Devan (35:12):
It. Yeah. You you,
Stephanie (35:15):
You're
Harper (35:16):
Me there, Devin?
Devan (35:17):
Yes. The three of us. Let's do it together.
Stephanie (35:19):
I can't wait.
Devan (35:20):
I was just gonna say, I don't think I actually answered the rest of your question as it related to the other changes in my life, <laugh>. And so my, uh, son just started middle school and the reason it feels like a change is because I have an older child who's now walking around portions of New York City without me and what that brings up in my body and him asking to go to Wegmans with his friends and the level of like independence that comes and the awareness of like, the shift in parenting. And like I've heard many people talk about, you know, the older and older the person gets, the further and further they, they kind of get from you and the feeling of control that you have. And so I never thought to be a type of parent that had a lot of control over my kids and wanted them to have independence, but now it's like, it was great to say that and now here's the practicing of that that feels, feels so different. Yeah. Feels like a really big change for me.
Stephanie (36:16):
Yeah. I can relate to that. I think it is one of those, you know, whether it's parenting or any relationship you have in life, it can go along one way and Oh, everything's good. I've got this, I know how to respond to you. I I can give you what you need. And then somehow it changes on you and you don't even know it. And then you're finding yourself in a new way. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> of relating to either your sons or your friends or your spouse or partners you find yourself sort of startled sometimes by it. Yeah. Big transition
Devan (36:47):
Feels like it. And I would say the last big thing is in relation to my job, in the internal changes that I'm feeling are required to do this job. So I, you know, accepted the job, was excited for the job, but at the same time, you know, anytime you start something new it's, it's scary. And so, uh, when I was an engineer before, the reason that profession was something that was like, oh yeah, I'm gonna do this. You know, engineers, people look at them pretty highly and is like a pretty intellectual type of of thing. And so for me, I, I was never really that great at engineering but wanted to have that aspect of like being intellectual versus like what is probably more centered to me is somebody who's like really emotional. And so when I went to the Moth, I was surrounded by people who were equally emotional and that felt like everyone's doing it.
(37:40):
So it feels like natural. And what I recognize even just in this two weeks of being at Gates, that there's like a ton of people who, whether they think they are or like, uh, whether it's just something in my head are like very intellectual, that they know so many things. They were top of their class here, top of their class there. And like now the requirement to be myself around people and in spaces that it feels like I need to do something else. A really big shift as it relates to doing it. And kind of getting back to the point of writing, like being able to be yourself without the expectations that like, oh shoot, now I gotta make myself look smart.
Harper (38:20):
<laugh> so exciting. I can't wait to hear how this pans out. This new adventure. You have to keep updated. So we end the, with the question when you the phrase good for now, what does that evoke for you?
Devan (38:34):
Hmm. <affirmative> it evokes a feeling of being connected to myself and that I'm enough like in it of itself without having to have any more accomplishments in my life. And so probably trying to get to a space where like I am enough and I love myself and I don't need to like be something other than I am and live to other people's expectations. Um, I think interestingly enough feels like I wanna be good enough forever. I find myself always trying to strive and accomplish someone else's goals and if I can just be enough for myself, then I don't ever have to keep toing that over and over. So I love the title and I love the feeling of like I am good enough forever.
Harper (39:23):
Ugh. Amazing. I love how you phrased it that way. So thank you. So appreciate you taking the time to chat with us. I always love talking to you and hearing your story. Where can people find out more about you and attend unwilling events and share their deepest, darkest secrets with
Devan (39:41):
You? Oh, I love the way you put that. Please do share your deepest, darkest secrets with me. That's what I live for. Um, you can find me. I'm on pretty much all the social medias at just my name Devan Sandiford, that's Devan with an A. And then my website devansandiford.com. My newsletter is probably the place I am the most free still at this moment. I share all types of things on there that I still don't necessarily feel super comfortable with sharing publicly. And I think as a result people do tend to share back things from their lives that are Yeah, are somewhat private. So if you're looking for a place to both hear someone else be vulnerable and also be vulnerable yourself, that's where I'd send you.
Harper (40:22):
Amazing. Thanks Devin.
Devan (40:24):
Thank you
Stephanie (40:24):
Both. Thank you so much. If you like the show, please follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen and give us a five star rating and review
Harper (40:39):
For show notes and more information, head to good enough for now. pod.com
Stephanie (40:44):
And follow us on Instagram at good enough for now Pod.
Harper (40:48):
See you next week.
